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The Ezra Klein Show

How ‘Being Animal’ Could Help Us Be Better Humans

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 27 June 2023

⏱️ 43 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

One of the oldest human ideas is that we are somehow different from animals, somehow superior to them. That’s a mistake, argues the environmental philosopher Melanie Challenger. “Many of the things we most value — our relationships, the romantic sensations of attraction and love, pregnancy and childbirth, the pleasures of springtime, of eating a meal — are physical, largely unconscious and demonstrably animal,” she writes in her book “How to Be Animal: A New History of What It Means to Be Human.” The consequences of resisting our fellowship with other species, she argues, have been devastating to them and to the planet. Challenger’s arguments are fascinating in their own right, but they also have a particular resonance at this moment of tremendous technological advancement. Humans have long defined ourselves by our cognitive intelligence, yet the machines we’re building are rapidly surpassing our minds. What does it mean to be human in a world where we are no longer superior by the standards we’ve created? Have we set ourselves up for a specieswide existential crisis? And how can embracing our status as animals help us navigate this bizarre future? Book Recommendations: Love’s Work by Gillian Rose Summertime by Danielle Celermajer Lighthead by Terrance Hayes Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Jeff Geld. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

From New York Times' opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.

0:24.0

So a quiet theme of the show.

0:25.9

A quiet theme I think of just being alive at this moment in time is the troubled relationship

0:32.8

between human beings and everything that is not us.

0:35.8

I mean, also, of course, between human beings and other human beings, but between human beings

0:39.7

and the animal world, which we are both a part of and somehow not, or at least like the

0:46.7

belief or not, between human beings and animals, some of which we love and would do anything

0:51.4

for their survival, like our dogs and our cats and some of which we raise for food in

0:56.0

the coolest conditions imaginable, and many of which we just don't think about at all,

1:00.4

and end up affected by our actions, but never part of our calculus.

1:05.9

But then, of course, there's also this emergent relationship between human beings and the

1:09.9

kinds of intelligences or simulacra of intelligences that we're creating.

1:16.6

I'm thinking specifically here of artificial intelligence and the way it has occasioned

1:22.6

a lot of anxiety then about what we are and what our worth is if we can indeed create

1:28.7

things more capable than us or smarter than us in narrow tasks and increasingly in general

1:34.7

ones.

1:35.7

So this question of how humanity relates to its own animal nature and then how that

1:41.2

relationship or that denial of a relationship shows up in our technologies, I think is

1:46.9

pretty present.

1:47.9

And as much as it sounds like a fuzzy philosophical question, I think it ends up being a very policy

1:52.7

relevant one, policy relevant in our policy towards animals, towards farm animals, towards

1:57.8

the ecology, towards the environment, and then of course towards AI and how AI will be

...

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