What Next | Why Are So Many Institutions Caving to Trump?

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Slate Podcasts

News, News Commentary, Politics

4.6 • 6K Ratings

🗓️ 30 July 2025

⏱️ 28 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

As Trump came back to the presidency, one of the first warnings liberals began repeating was “Do not obey in advance.” But from government-agency heads to university presidents to news organizations, people are opting to simply leave their jobs, rather than do the uncomfortable work of standing up to authoritarianism. Guest: Jonathan Last, editor of The Bulwark. Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Ethan Oberman, Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	These days, Jonathan will ask from over at the bulwark.
0:09.6	He's been thinking and writing a lot about the problem of caving.
0:14.7	What percentage of domestic and world leaders would you say at this point have caved to Donald Trump in one way or another?
0:24.3	I mean, all of them, I think, to some degree.
0:32.5	Is it more than you thought you'd see say back in November?
0:35.7	No.
0:36.7	It is more than I...
0:38.6	You thought it would be full capitulation?
0:40.6	Yes.
0:43.0	Jonathan, JVL to his friends.
0:45.8	He may have foreseen this, but it's still worth understanding the full breadth of what's going on.
0:51.2	When JVL and I talk about caving, we're talking about the way Columbia University
0:55.6	agreed to pay the federal government more than 200 million bucks to ensure research funds
1:01.2	continued to flow. We're talking about the way some white shoe law firms have offered pro bono
1:07.4	legal representation to Trump's pet causes rather than face the government's wrath.
1:14.3	We're even talking about the way a food company like Coca-Cola agreed to sell more soda made
1:18.9	with cane sugar to appease RFK Jr's Department of Health and Human Services. JVL says,
1:25.6	you can convince yourself, caving like this. It's kind of smart, but he
1:31.2	calls it the surrender trap. You know who's not caving? Tell me. Jerome Powell. Yeah. Jerome Powell.
1:44.0	Did you watch his presser last week with Donald Trump?
1:46.5	Yeah.
1:47.9	And we're with the chairman, as you know.
	...

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