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Help us inform other podcast listeners by subscribing to the Issues Et cetera podcast with YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. It's a large outwardly successful, busy church, more a church than a small, rural congregation,

maybe literally out in the middle of nowhere on a dirt road,

and on Sunday morning maybe 20 or 30 people are showing up on a regular basis. What makes a church the church? Welcome back to Issues, Etc. I'm Todd Wilkin. Joining us to talk about that question, Dr. Matt

Richard. He's pastor of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Minot, North Dakota, author of the book,

Will the Real Church Please Stand Up, Seven False Churches, and a forthcoming column for the

Lutheran Witness magazine titled, Where Two or Three Are Gathered. Dr. Richard, welcome back.

Thanks, Todd. It's good to be here.

Tell us about Emmanuel Lutheran Church in Willow Creek, North Dakota. Yeah,

Manuel Lutheran Church is just a phenomenal North Dakota church. I call it one of my hero churches,

and anytime I get a chance, I'd love attending there. Just maybe to set the stages very briefly,

Emmanuel Lutheran Church is about 20 to 30 members on any given Sunday,

and it is out in the North Dakota Prairie.

And to access it, you have to go down about three different gravel roads, it seems like,

and then it's by Willow Creek.

The name of the church is Emmanuel Lutheran Church of Willow Creek,

so it's right next to a creek. And it's a quaint white church, again, on the North Dakota Prairie with corn on the one side and maybe some wheat on the other.

And as you come into that church, it has that old church smell and it has an old pipe organ.

And here's the kicker.

...