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Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American power, politics and society.

On each episode, I will talk to an American expert or an expert on America

about something that's going on in America in 2023.

I am delighted to be joined today by two very, very interesting American academics

called Benjamin Schwartz and Christopher Lane, who have written the cover

piece for Harper's Magazine, which for Americano listeners who don't know is probably the most

interesting magazine on the American left. And the title of the essay that they've written is,

Why Are We in Ukraine? And the stand first or subtitle of the article is On the Dangerous American Huberous.

Ben, I will start with you.

Could you run us through your argument, which is very provocative and I think has caused some provocation already,

called some reaction, I should say,

in America. Why is America in Ukraine? Well, first, I have to distance myself slightly from the title, which is a terrific title. It's an echo of a famous piece in Harper's that Norman Mailer wrote

during the Vietnam War. Why are we in Vietnam? And the only reason I would just associate myself

somewhat from that is that some critics of the piece have pointed out, understandably, that we are not,

properly speaking. we, the United

States are not in Ukraine. And we are not, and I don't think they even really got the reference

to the Norman Mailer essay, but we're certainly not in Ukraine in the same way that we were in

Vietnam. In other words, we are expending enormous treasure,

but we're not expending any blood whatsoever.

So in that way, we are not in Ukraine,

but of course, our prestige and our military

...