What counts as progress?

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Society & Culture, News, Politics, News Commentary, Philosophy

4.6 • 10.8K Ratings

🗓️ 1 December 2025

⏱️ 44 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

We’ve never had more wealth, more data, or more ways to be entertained. So why doesn’t it feel like progress? Sean’s guest today is Brad DeLong, an economic historian at UC Berkeley and author of Slouching Towards Utopia. They talk about the difference between getting richer and living well, and why the real hinge of the 21st century might be attention rather than growth. DeLong explains how AI could make life easier or simply make us more distracted, why the world’s progress continues even as American politics falters, and what smart policy could do for the people left behind by technological change. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: J. Bradford DeLong, economic historian and author of Slouching Towards Utopia We would love to hear from you. To tell us what we thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members This episode was supported by a grant from Arnold Ventures. Vox had full discretion over the content of this reporting. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	It's time for Black Friday at Dell Technologies.
0:02.7	Save big on PCs like the Dell 16 Plus featuring Intelcore Ultra Processors.
0:07.3	Shop now at Dell.com.
0:08.2	It's time for Black Friday at Dell Technologies.
0:12.8	Save big on PCs like the Dell 16 Plus featuring Intel Corps ultra processors.
0:17.5	Shop now at Dell.combeck forward slash Black Friday.
0:22.2	The 20th century is Shop now at Dell.com. Okay, forward slash Black Friday. The 20th century is often referred to as the age of growth.
0:26.8	We all know what that's supposed to mean.
0:30.4	Wealth creation, innovation, better living standards for everyone, or nearly everyone.
0:37.8	But now we're in the 21st century.
0:40.8	The age of inequality and finance capitalism and digital technology.
0:46.1	We're still growing in some ways.
0:48.8	But has all that growth made us happier, more free?
1:00.3	Are we living more fulfilling lives? People seem more anxious, more divided, more distracted, more isolated, and less sure about what we're building
1:07.3	toward as a society. So what do we make of all that angst?
1:12.6	Are we still making progress?
1:15.6	Or is it just the wrong kind of progress?
1:22.6	I'm Sean Ely, and this is the gray area.
1:30.3	My guest today is Brad DeLong, an economic historian at UC Berkeley, and the author of one of my favorite books, slouching towards Utopia.
1:40.6	It tells the story of what he calls the long 20th century, the period from 1870 to 2010, when
1:49.5	humanity broke free of scarcity and started believing that growth and therefore progress was destiny.
1:59.2	But that era, Brad argues, is over. So what comes next? What can we still build?
	...

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