What a slow civil war looks like

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Society & Culture, News, Politics, News Commentary, Philosophy

4.6 • 10.8K Ratings

🗓️ 24 April 2023

⏱️ 59 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene." Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author References: The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023) The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008) The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005) A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020) "Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan. 3, 2022) "January 6 Was Only the Beginning" by Jeff Sharlet (Vanity Fair; June 22, 2022) "Man who rested feet on desk in Pelosi's office on Jan. 6 found guilty on 8 counts" by Hannah Rabinowitz and Holms Lybrand (CNN; Jan. 23) "Marjorie Taylor Greene got into a screaming match with Rep. Cheney over 'Jewish space lasers' comment" by Azmi Haroun (Insider; Oct. 21, 2021) "If you see an all-black American flag, what does that mean?" by Matt Gregory and Mia Salenetri (WUSA9; Nov. 12, 2021) "What does the end of Roe mean for IVF?" by Bridgit Bowden (Wisconsin Public Radio; July 6, 2022) "The Blast That Changed Everything" by Preston Schmitt and Doug Erickson (On Wisconsin magazine; Summer 2020) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by: Producer: Erikk Geannikis Engineer: Patrick Boyd Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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1:20.0	It's always tempting to dramatize current events by recasting them in historical terms.
1:26.9	To be honest, I'm pretty skeptical of this impulse. And I've been especially skeptical of what
1:33.5	seems like a whole genre of books and articles claiming that America is headed toward another
1:39.6	civil war. And while the idea still seems far-fetched, it does seem a little more plausible to
1:47.2	me these days than it did say five years ago. For one thing, this happened.
1:56.4	January 6th was a sobering moment of political violence. A lot of people got hurt.
2:04.8	A few people even died. But one woman was shot and killed by a capital police officer.
2:12.0	Ashley Babitt.
2:16.9	In the past, when federal officers have killed civilians who were seen by their supporters as
2:22.0	innocent, no matter how heavily armed they might have been, it galvanized what came to be known
2:28.2	as the militia movement. Starting in Ruby Ridge, Idaho in 1992.
	...

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