Welcome to Talking Fed's One-on-One, One, Deep Dive Discussions with National Figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives.

I'm your host, Harry Littman. Welcome to another

talking feds one-on-one. I'm always pleased when I can welcome the indomitable, the inimitable

Marcy Wheeler, who famously writes at Empty Wheel and is an American independent journalist specializing in national security

and civil liberties. She has also published in many outlets, including the New Republic,

motherboard, and appears frequently on television and radio, and is the author of Anatomy of Deceit, a primer on the CIA leak investigation.

But I'm especially pleased to welcome her today. We are all of us on the day before the

inauguration of Donald Trump, frustrated and chagrined at the apparent vacuum of information about Jack Smith's

findings in the Mara Lago case, what is volume 2, but that hasn't been released to the public.

And it's certainly true that our knowledge is spotty and incomplete.

However, it's not the case that it's barren.

And here's where Marcy comes to the rescue, as she has done before, to dig deep into the evidence and explain what it tells us about what volume two will really include if and when it's released. And more generally, what the public record already reveals about the documents case

itself, which was true, as you'll remember, for volume one, when we already had such a wealth

of information, especially from the October filing that Smith had given to Judge Chutkin.

So, Marcy Willer, thanks as always for joining. Good to be on.

I want to just start because your blog and everyone if you want, you can follow along,

Marcy's entry at Empty Wheel Net is necessarily elliptical. And we talk about this and we talk about about that so just to sort of situate it in the

overall sweep of the case which begins the day the morning really when he's leaving the White

House and goes through a long period of kind of bobbing and weaving that eventually gives way to obstruction,

subpoena search, and patent obstruction, the charges recall everyone there for, that he,

not that he took, but he willfully retained national defense information, that he

conspired to obstruct with

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