My guest is Michael Cockrell.

Michael Cockrell is the distinguished political documentary maker and journalist, and his new book, Unmasking Our Leaders, Confessions of a Political Documentary Maker, has just come out in paperback.

Welcome to the podcast, Michael.

Thank you very much for asking me.

Right. Well, your career, sounds like an establish, Michael, goes back almost 60 years,

and it'd be something of a cliche to say that a lot has changed in those decades.

But what has not changed from your perspective in terms of how journalists and documentary

makers like yourself deal with the politicians in power?

What has not changed is that politicians who spend all their life

sort of polishing their images on have a kind of love-hate relationship with television

and have a love-hate relationship with documentaries. They'd love to be in one but they hate it if you don't do it in the way that they would like you to do it.

And people like Rishi Sunnet now has his own personal documentary maker.

Right.

Yeah, it's extraordinary.

When he first challenged with the leadership against Boris Johnson, or, or when, when Boris Johnson stood down

after he did, after Rishi Sunek had resigned, within a couple of days of announcing his

candidacy, he had a slick documentary that had been made and put it out on the internet straight away and and as prime

minister he's had the the shot that one always wants to get of the new prime minister walking in

and being clapped in by by the staff who only a few minutes ago were clapping out the previous

prime minister it's a great shot but it's normally negotiated with access to both BBC and ITN,

but this time it was just access to Rishi Sunak's own documentary maker.

It's hard to imagine, but I think it comes out in your book as well.

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