It's the Brian Larry Show on WNYC.

Good morning again, everyone.

We'll talk to New Yorker staff writer Jason Zengarly now about Tucker Carlson and Stephen Miller

and what their rising power and

apparently their popularity say about America today and how they became so influential.

Jason has a new book called Hated by All the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unravelling of

the Conservative Minds. Some of what he reminds us is that Tucker Carlson was not always as

conservative or far right as people think of him today. Jason, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for joining us today.

It's good to be here. Thanks for having me on. So I want to go right to what I think is sort of the main

takeaway from your book. Tell me if this is too reductionist. Tucker Carlson used to be a mainstream

media conservative, but gradually went far right in pursuit of ratings and audiences, not so much

out of true conviction. Is that the story you're telling? That's part of the story. I think that, yes,

I think like certainly he as, you know, he's responding to the incentive structure that exists in conservative media and conservative politics.

I mean, I do think that there, I think like anybody, they change their minds over time.

And I think his viewpoint has shifted a little bit in probably legitimate ways.

I mean, there were significant events that occurred that had an impact on him, whether,

you know, it was the war in Iraq or the 2016 election.

I mean, you can't, you can't discount those.

But, but yeah, I think, I think you've summed it up pretty well.

So to some degree, this is a story of market cynicism and opportunism more than genuine ideological radicalism as you see

it. But why think this was for fame and power more than belief? What's the evidence?

Well, Tucker, I mean, like you said, Tucker started off in a very different place from where he's wound up today.

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