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The Ezra Klein Show

Trump’s Legal Jeopardy and America’s Political Crossroads

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 28 March 2023

⏱️ 58 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Donald Trump’s legal troubles are mounting. A Manhattan grand jury investigation into the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels could soon make Trump the first former American president ever to be criminally indicted. But the Manhattan case isn’t the only source of legal risk for Trump. In Georgia, the Fulton County district attorney is considering criminal charges for Trump’s efforts to influence the 2020 election, and the Department of Justice is investigating his role in the Jan. 6 riots and the removal of classified documents from the White House. This level of legal vulnerability surrounding a former president is unprecedented. It’s also unsurprising — Trump routinely flouts protocols and norms. But even more than his disregard for convention, Trump has a knack for forcing our legal and political systems into predicaments that don’t really have good solutions. How should a political system handle criminal charges against a current political candidate? Is it appropriate for prosecutors to consider the risk of mob violence in weighing charges? And what’s the risk of damage to our institutions of holding Trump accountable — and for failing to do so? [You can listen to this episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google or wherever you get your podcasts.] David French, my colleague at The New York Times, is a lawyer and conservative commentator who has been trying to parse the legal merits of the Trump inquiries and the thorny political questions they raise. In this episode, we explore the investigations into Trump’s misconduct and the interconnected risks that he, his supporters and the Republican Party pose to our political system. We discuss the details of the Stormy Daniels case and why it may not be a slam dunk; the inquiry into Trump’s efforts to overturn election results in Georgia; the appropriateness of weighing the “national interest” when prosecuting a political figure; whether Gerald Ford’s 1974 pardon of Richard Nixon created a precedent that presidents are above the law; why French worries about giving a mob “veto power” over the rule of law; the Department of Justice’s Jan. 6 investigation and why the legal definition of incitement might be hard to clear; French’s belief that moral courage among Republican elites could stopped Trump’s rise to power; why he thinks the Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit against Fox News was a “tremendous public service”; whether Fox News is really showing “respect” for its viewers, and more. Mentioned: “MAGA, Not Trump, Controls the Movement Now” by David French “The Potential Trump Indictment Is Unwise” by David French Book Recommendations: We the Fallen People by Robert Tracy McKenzie The Napoleonic Wars by Alexander Mikaberidze Ring of Steel by Alexander Watson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld and Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Ezra Klein, this is the Ezra Conchell.

0:23.9

Alright before we start today we are taking questions for the upcoming Ask Me Anything

0:28.6

episode. So if you've got anything at all to ask me if you want to hear answered

0:33.3

on the show, send it into Ezra Klein Show at nytimes.com. We are accepting questions

0:38.4

until Sunday April 2nd. So anything that comes in after that we're not going to

0:42.5

consider. We just get a lot and we got to start sorting through it. So send it in

0:46.8

before Sunday April 2nd if you want it to be part of the show. Speaking of dates

0:52.2

I'm recording this on Monday, March 27th and it's Monday with a lot of uncertainty.

0:57.8

We don't yet know what is going to happen with the case against Donald Trump in Manhattan,

1:02.0

the case around the Fermi Daniels Hush Money payments. It is possible Donald Trump could

1:06.3

be charged with a felony, with a misdemeanor, with nothing. It's also not the only case

1:11.5

against Donald Trump. There's a case in Georgia that is around elections version. There

1:16.0

are different investigations opened by the Department of Justice again around January

1:20.3

6th and the election and then also around classified documents. There's quite a lot

1:25.3

of legal risk around Donald Trump right now and where there's legal risk, there's political

1:30.0

risk, there's a risk of violence, the risk of damage to our institutions either because

1:35.2

they do hold Donald Trump accountable or because they don't. Donald Trump forces the political

1:40.5

system constantly into profoundly challenging positions that don't really have good answers

1:47.8

that really really don't have good answers. That is part of the danger poses but also part

1:52.8

of the danger and we talk about this today that his movement poses, that the kind of politics,

1:58.7

that he doesn't just practice but that he is rewarded for, that is wanted so badly by

2:03.9

the people who support him that others in their public party now ape it. That is also,

...

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