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All right, somebody have heard from experts, from abuse survivors, from former ministers,

from kind of across the theological spectrum, but all have in some way, shape, or form been affected by the series C, been affected by Wilson or his

teachings, culturally, theological, ideologically, politically, whatever it may have been.

And I'm super happy and pleased to have a counselor who's coming on.

We'll have more counselors coming on to talk about spiritual abuse, physical abuse, church

abuse, more generally.

So if you can introduce yourself where you're associated with, where you're employed,

and maybe what your research has been focused on.

Yeah. Well, hey, Peter. Good to be with you.

Chuck de Groat. I am a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, which is a reform seminary in the Dutch Reformed Tradition, the Reform Church of America, and the founding director of the clinical mental health counseling program here.

And I've written a book called When Narcissism Comes to Church, but really the work for me goes back to the mid-1990s when I was a student at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, a conservative reformed context.

In the context of the seminary and churches where women in particular were experiencing abuse, but there was really no

acknowledgement of it or validation of it, if you want to say it that way.

Mostly was swept under the rug or rationalized in one way or another.

And so I've been involved in these kinds of conversations from very early on when I was being

trained as a, both a pastor and ordained minister and a therapist.

...