So Renato, we've heard the audio tape and it sounds pretty bad.

Is this the smoking gun?

Eh, it's complicated.

I'm Asharangappa.

I teach national security law at Yale University.

I'm a former FBI special agent and I'm a legal contributor for ABC News.

And I'm Renata Mariati.

I'm a former federal prosecutor, a practicing lawyer and a legal analyst.

And we're here to help you understand topics

that can't be boiled down to a sound bite or a tweet.

So, Lordy, there are tapes.

Indeed, now here's the thing I have to say Ash this is they say a picture is worth a thousand words I think this tape is

worth more than that because I heard the word I saw it read the words in the

indictment they're spelled out in the indictment and it's way worse when you

listen to it isn't it then it read in the indictment? Yeah so I'm and I'm

interested in in unpacking this with you because when I read the indictment it's like

okay this is like this definitely shows like state of mind it

undermines some of the defenses that he could put up but in terms of like it's probative value like kind of affirmatively to prove like an element

I don't know that it was clear and it seems like with the when you hear it though when you hear the

rustling and you hear the reactions of the people around him and you can kind of almost visualize like what he's doing, it seems

like it is more than just state of mind or obliterating defenses?

Yeah, it's, there's a couple things in there that, and I have not,

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