My guest is Christopher Tuggenhard.

Baron Tuggenhardt, a Wittington, has been journalist with the Financial Times, a member of the House of Commons, an MP, a European Commissioner, and now sits in the House of Lords.

He has many, many other positions as well, but they're too numerous to mention now.

Most importantly, for the purpose of this podcast, he is the author of a new

book, The Worm in the Apple, a history of the Conservative Party and Europe from Churchill to Cameron.

Welcome to the podcast, Christopher. Thank you very much. Well, before we start talking about the book

and the main themes of your book, Christopher, which I find a really fascinating reader.

I want to talk a bit about you and the kind of the big European chunk of your long,

distinguished career. You'd been in the House of Commons for about, I think, seven years when the then Prime Minister James Callaghan nominated you to be a European Commission, I think,

at the tender age of 39. I mean, were you surprised when you got the news that you were about to be a European Commissioner, I think at the tender age of 39.

I mean, were you surprised when you got the news that you were about to become a European Commissioner,

nominated by a Labour Prime Minister?

Well, I was absolutely flabbergasted to be off of the post.

The Educate was that the Prime Minister nominated both the Conservative and the Labour Commissioners.

So Ted Heath had nominated Christopher Soames and George Thompson.

And so when their terms came to an end, Callahan was Prime Minister.

And he, at the suggestion of Schmidt and Giske, nominated Roy Jenkins, who became president.

And Margaret Thatcher thought that she had the nomination, but in fact, there was no precedent for that.

And Roy Jenkins, for reasons, which are still a mystery to me, wanted me to

accompany him. And he asked Callahan. And so Callahan asked me. But the initiative came from

Roy Jenkins. I was totally surprised. It never expected it, but I had no hesitation in

accepting. It seems like another time, another world, frankly, when you have yourself, obviously,

...