The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Lenny Rachitsky

Technology, Business, Entrepreneurship

5 • 1.5K Ratings

🗓️ 15 September 2024

⏱️ 83 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

• What product managers do that annoys engineers

• Why major rewrites are a trap

• Why you should have fewer one-on-ones

• Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams

• Tips for new managers

• Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager

• Much more

—

Brought to you by:

• DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity

• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

—

Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier

—

Where to find Camille Fournier:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/

• Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Camille’s background

(02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers

(07:09) Avoiding the telephone game

(08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering

(09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation

(11:37) The middle-person dilemma

(14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?

(20:40) Engineering leadership lessons

(36:02) Moving from IC to management

(40:32) One-on-one meetings

(45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones

(45:27) Building a balanced work culture

(48:01) Effective time management strategies

(54:15) Advice for platform team success

(01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities

(01:04:43) When to form a platform team

(01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team

(01:12:48) AI corner

(01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/

• The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

• 97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903

• Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e

• Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio

• Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg

• GraphQL: https://graphql.org/

• New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD

• Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/

• Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/

• Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7

• Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2

• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304

• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438

• Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/

• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	I'm curious what it is that PMs do that annoy engineers most.
0:04.4	Hording credit. PMs, they tend to be the front-facing person for initiative.
0:09.3	Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM takes all the glory and all the
0:14.7	credit for the project that they really worked very hard.
0:18.0	I find the best PMs are the ones that talk the least and encourage other people to do the presenting.
0:23.0	The next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with thems when they just don't
0:26.4	understand the details and act like they don't matter.
0:28.9	It just shows a real lack of empathy for the work that engineers are doing and I think it really can be very off-putting.
0:34.7	Is there any insight you can give about what people maybe miss about the motivation of engineers,
0:39.0	what gets them excited?
0:40.1	A lot of people assume that engineers just write code and don't underestimate the ability for your
0:46.2	engineers to want to understand the business problem, want to understand the customer problem.
0:51.5	I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having idea.
0:57.0	Today my guest is Camille Fornier. Camille is one of the most respected technology executives in tech and the author of the manager's path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating your career and moving into management.
1:13.4	Over the course of her career she was CTO over at the runway, VP of technology at
1:18.1	Goldman Sachs, Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at J.P. Morgan Chase, and Head of Platform engineering at 2 Sigma.
1:24.6	She's also releasing a new book later this year called Platform Engineering, a guide for
1:29.2	technical product and people leaders, which you can actually pre-order today, and we get into this topic in the latter half of the conversation.
1:36.0	We also dig into what PMs do that most annoys engineers and how to stop doing these things,
1:41.0	why major rewrites are often a trap, why you may want to be doing things. stop doing
1:45.0	these things, why major rewrites are often a trap, why you may want to be doing fewer one-on-ones.
1:46.0	Would most surprises people when they become a manager
	...

Please login to see the full transcript.

Previous episode | Next episode

Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Lenny Rachitsky, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.

Generated transcripts are the property of Lenny Rachitsky and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.