From New York Times opinion, I'm Ross Douthat, and this is Interesting Times.

Over the last 20 years, America has become more socially liberal on almost every issue.

But transgender rights has lately become an exception, a place where the culture war burns hot as public opinion shifts rightward, on specific

questions like transgender participation in high school sports, and general questions about what

really defines sex and gender. My own sense is that Americans still broadly support the

liberties of transgender adults to live as they wish,

and may not support some of the moves the Trump administration is making to limit legal rights.

But I also think that many people have become extremely skeptical about all issues involving trans-identifying kids.

And I also think there's a widespread sense that open debate on some of these fronts was

discouraged, that people with doubts or anxieties felt pressured not to raise them.

My guest this week, Chase Strangio, has been at the forefront of the activist push on these issues, for instance,

as the first openly transgender American to argue before the Supreme Court.

Our conversation is about legal strategy, political backlash, the Trump administration,

and where this cultural fight might go.

But it's also an experiment in arguing about these issues

directly, looking for common ground and mutual understanding, but also fruitful disagreement,

across a divide that's likely to be with us for some time.

Chase Strangio, welcome to interesting times.

Thank you for having me, Ross.

It's a pleasure.

So we're going to talk about where the fight over transgender rights is going.

We're going to try and get into some deeper philosophical waters.

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