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Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer

The Second Estate: Where Billionaires Don’t Pay. You Do. (with Ray D. Madoff)

Pitchfork Economics with Nick Hanauer

Civic Ventures

News, Business, Government, Politics

4.71.5K Ratings

🗓️ 14 April 2026

⏱️ 50 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Would it be a surprise if we told you the rich don’t actually live in the same tax system as everyone else? Tomorrow is Tax Day, when millions of Americans will be filing their taxes or applying for extensions, so Nick and Goldy sit down with Ray D. Madoff, Professor of Tax Law at Boston College, and author of The Second Estate, to pull back the curtain on how wealth really moves—and why so much of it never gets taxed at all. Because here’s the twist: The system wasn’t supposed to work this way. But over time, something changed. Now, the people who live off paychecks carry the tax burden… while the people living off wealth often don’t have to play the game at all. Professor Madoff explains what happened and what it would take to fix it.  Ray D. Madoff is a professor at Boston College Law School and director of the Forum on Philanthropy and the Public Good. She is a leading expert on tax policy, wealth, and philanthropy, and author of The Second Estate: How the Tax Code Made an American Aristocracy. Social Media: @raymadoff Further reading:  The Second Estate: How the Tax Code Made an American Aristocracy. The Atlantic - How to Tax Billionaires CNBC - Lawsuit over $21 million donor-advised fund highlights risks of DAF giving Washington Post - A Signature GOP Issue Is Omitted From Trump’s ‘Big’ Tax Bill. Weird New York Times - America Builds an Aristocracy Website: http://pitchforkeconomics.com Facebook: Pitchfork Economics Podcast Bluesky: @pitchforkeconomics.bsky.social Instagram: @pitchforkeconomics Threads: pitchforkeconomics TikTok: @pitchfork_econ YouTube: @pitchforkeconomics LinkedIn: Pitchfork Economics Twitter: @PitchforkEcon, @NickHanauer Substack: ⁠The Pitch⁠

Transcript

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0:00.0

The rising inequality and growing political instability that we see today are the direct result of decades of bad economic theory.

0:10.6

The last five decades of trickle-down economics haven't worked.

0:14.7

But what's the alternative?

0:16.3

Middle-out economics is the answer.

0:18.6

Because the middle class is the source of growth, not its consequence.

0:23.2

That's right.

0:28.7

This is pitchfork economics with Nick Hanauer, a podcast about how to build the economy from the middle out.

0:36.9

Welcome to the show.

0:44.3

You know what tomorrow is, Nick?

0:46.8

Very special day. Do you know what tomorrow is?

0:49.0

I think it's tax day.

0:50.4

Well, I was going to say it's my birthday, but yeah, it's also tax day.

0:55.0

It makes a lot of sense, considering how much I talk about taxes and over the years how I focused on that and I'm a tax day baby.

1:07.0

I did not realize that, but all of a sudden it makes perfect sense. And so we have a tax day,

1:17.2

not really my birthday themed podcast today, but a tax day themed podcast. Yeah. We're going to be

1:24.9

talking about taxes with a tax lawyer, a professor of tax law.

1:29.6

And why wouldn't we?

1:30.9

So much better than the way I normally celebrate my birthday, which is, as a kid, which was with a pacidic birthday cake.

1:38.3

If you ever had one of those.

1:42.9

And, you know, the person we're talking to, obviously, is a big tax expert.

1:48.9

Ray Madoff is a professor at Boston College Law School and director of the Forum on Philanthropy and the Public Good.

1:55.8

She's also a leading expert on tax policy, wealth, and philanthropy, and is the author of The Second Estate,

...

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