Hello again, I'm Orban Alney.

The rate of incarceration in the United States is the lowest in 20 years.

Even so, this country has more people in prison than any of the world's other 200 countries,

more prisoners than China, which has a population four times as large.

That's a consequence of America's so-called War on Crime, which has a population four times as large. That's a consequence of America's

so-called War on Crime, which has gone on for several decades. Now there's a growing consensus

in favor of change. But that doesn't mean there's agreement on just what to do. We'll start with

the Trump administration. Retired Army Major General Mark Inch has been forced out recently as director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

He was a casualty of an ongoing battle between Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

Glenn Thrush is covering the story for the New York Times.

Glenn, good to have you with us.

Good to be here. You've described this as an ideological tug of war. What do you mean?

Well, Jared Kushner, who has a very broad portfolio. He's obviously the president's son and the son of Charles Kushner, a former federal inmate who served time for fraud and for

attempting to entrap his own brother in a bizarre scheme about 10 years ago, is really passionate

about reform and is passionate about sentencing reform, which very much puts him on the same

pages as the Obama administration.

But early on in 2017, he got together with Jeff Sessions,

who had been recently appointed Attorney General by the president.

And Sessions, who happened by coincidence to have covered in Alabama when I covered some corrections issues in Alabama, is very much the opposite.

Sessions is very acutely aware of the optics of being

too nice to prisoners. He's an old-fashioned sort of law and order person. Couldn't be any more

on the other end of the spectrum than Kushner. And they agreed sort of a gentleman's agreement

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