Hi, it's NPR's book of the day. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. Back in 2010, Archbishop Desmond Tutu,

who died in late December, wrote a book called Made for Goodness. It was an argument for how humans are,

at the end of the day, in spite of everything he'd seen fighting decades of apartheid, good.

Some days, to be honest, I think that's a real tough sell. But in this interview from 2010 with NPR's Renee Montaigne, Tutu talks about

being constantly bowled over by people's propensity for forgiveness. And that's how he knew. He was

right. In the U.S., national security news can feel far away from daily life.

Distant wars, murky conflicts, diplomacy behind closed doors.

On our new show, Sources and Methods.

NPR reporters on the ground bring you stories of real people,

helping you understand why distant events matter here at home.

Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're taking the Long View this week, our occasional series with people of long experience.

Today, a man of faith and fight, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, whose new book is called Made for Goodness.

During apartheid, Archbishop Tutu railed against the injustice and inhumanity of South Africa's

government. Now 78, in a magenta habit with a silver crucifix around his neck, he is the picture

of a holy man. Looking back on his boyhood in a black township, Archbishop Tutu remembers, an urchin with a fondness for marbles and comic books, which led me to ask, did you like going to church as a child?

We had fun.

I mean, I still remember things like,

If God before us, if God before us, who can be against us?

Who, who can be against us, against us?

And it was a fantastic thing to have much, much later, to remember, yes, if God before us

in our struggle against injustice and oppression, who can be against us?

...