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Only one candidate to be the next leader of the opposition has held any of the great

officers of state.

My guest on political thinking, a conversation with, rather than newsy

interrogation of someone who shapes our political thinking, has in fact had two of those jobs.

James Cleverley was Foreign Secretary and then Home Secretary.

He is the great survivor of the years of Tory turmoil, appointed by Boris Johnson, promoted by Liz Truss and kept on by Rishi Sunak.

He is now in the final four candidates to become the next leader of the Conservative Party.

All of them will make their case before Conservative activists

and members at the Tory conference in a couple of weeks time.

James Clevley, welcome to political thinking.

Cheers now.

It's the first time we've spoken since that election day.

How does it feel to go from having one of those great offices have stayed all that comes with

it, the red boxes and the chauffeford cars and the security and all the rest.

Suddenly it's gone.

So it's not that paraphernalia that you miss, it's to being able to do stuff and particularly in the portfolios

I've held foreign sector in home secretary they're both very much in the news at

the moment the situation with Ukraine, the decisions around the UK's posture, how we further

support the Ukrainians and their self-defence.

We've had the riots over thedefense. We've still got the terrible situation

with illegal migration and in those areas where I've been intimately involved very, very recently. I'm watching the

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