Welcome to The Spectator podcast. I'm Isabel Hardman.

On this week's podcast, we'll be reappraising the role of experts, scrutinising the chaotic papacy and checking in with the Court of King Donald.

First up, in this week's cover story, Fraser Nelson writes that the definitive quote from the EU referendum

was one that the speaker, Michael Gove, had never meant to make.

Here's how it sounded during that interview with Faisal Islam.

I think the people in this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying...

People of this country have had enough of experts.

What do you mean by now?

...with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best in getting it consistently wrong.

Because these people, these people are the same ones who've got consistently wrong.

This is proper happening.

But was that really the point that Gove was making?

And, eight months on, was he actually right about experts?

Fraser joins me to discuss this,

along with the spectator's political editor, James Forsyth. So Fraser, you say in your piece that

there's not very much point anymore trusting experts, so who should we listen to, surely not

journalists? Well, I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to experts. It's just that there's a

difference between somebody who understands economics and somebody who's able to predict the future. I mean, the best economists will tell you

that they are not clairvoyance. They make this point quite forcefully. I remember Robert Choate,

who runs the Office for Budget Responsibility, was once on news night where he was being challenged

about his estimates saying, look, what if these are wrong? And he replied, well, of course they're wrong. Economic forecasts. They're always wrong. We make a bunch of

estimates, we put them into a computer. All it takes us for one of these estimates to be wrong and

...