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The Lincoln Project

The Decency Era is Over

The Lincoln Project

The Lincoln Project

News, Government, Politics, News Commentary

4.69.1K Ratings

🗓️ 20 January 2026

⏱️ 76 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

This week’s double-header episode confronts America’s moral crisis from two sides of the same coin: what happens when leadership becomes corrupt and power-hungry—and what it looks like when leaders choose decency instead. First, journalist Mary Clare Jalonick joins Rick to break down her urgent new book Storm at the Capitol, a chilling account of how ambition, radicalization, and moral cowardice led to January 6 and exposed what happens when power is severed from principle. Then, veteran political voice Chris Matthews offers a stark counterpoint with Letters from Bobby, drawing on Robert F. Kennedy’s words to remind us that leadership is a moral act rooted in restraint, empathy, and responsibility. This conversation couldn’t be more timely as ICE violence and aggressive enforcement tactics come to a head across the country, putting into sharp relief the real-world consequences of unchecked power and moral collapse. One episode. Two books. One unavoidable truth: democracy doesn’t fail all at once—it fails when leaders abandon decency first.





You can find Mary Clare Jalonick @MCJalonick on X, and you can stay up to date with her congressional reporting at the AP. Also, her new book, 'Storm at the Capitol: An Oral History of January 6th,' is available now, wherever fine books are sold. 

Chris Matthews is on X @HardballChris, and you can check out his Substack at thechrismatthews.substack.com. His new book, 'Lessons from Bobby: Ten Reasons Robert F. Kennedy Still Matters,' is available now, wherever fine books are sold. 

Rick Wilson is on X at @TheRickWilson, on Bluesky at @TheRickWilson.bsky.social, and you can check out Rick's Substack at therickwilson.substack.com. You can check out more of LP's work at www.lincolnproject.us and on X at @ProjectLincoln. 

Visit www.growtherapy.com/lincolnproject to find out how you could get started with a therapist that works with you. #ad 

Go to www.webroot.com/lincolnproject for up to 60% off. #ad 

Transcript

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0:00.0

Hey, folks, today's episode is a big double header for the Lincoln Project podcast, and it's kind of two sides of a interesting coin.

0:05.7

We've got an interview first with Mary Claire Jelonik, who has given us a new book about the storming of the Capitol on January 6, 2021.

0:14.3

It is an oral history and inside oral history talking to folks ranging from the people who stormed the building to the people who were inside

0:23.1

fearing for their lives in elected office. It is a, it's a dark story, but it's enlightening

0:29.6

in how the contemporaneous recollections of this terrible day are really burned into the history

0:36.8

books with these interviews, really

0:38.5

brilliantly done.

0:39.8

She's terrific in her coverage of Congress in general, but on this day, she really exceeds

0:44.9

herself in every way.

0:47.2

And Marico Jolonik is the first.

0:48.7

And the second interview is with Chris Matthews, who it was actually a little more optimistic

0:53.6

because we're talking about his new book

0:55.0

about lessons from Bobby, about Bobby Kennedy, not the current one, the, the, the, the, the, the,

1:00.6

good one, and about how he combined the sort of ideological uplift with practical, like, in-your-face

1:09.4

politics a little bit. It's fun.

1:11.3

I've always loved Chris as an interviewer, and I was delighted to be able to interview him.

1:15.7

So we have a fun episode today.

1:18.4

Enjoy.

1:19.0

See you soon.

1:19.7

Your task will not be an easy one.

1:22.0

Your enemy is well-trained, well-equipped in battle-hearted.

1:25.6

There is not a liberal America and a conservative America.

...

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