Hello, I'm Dr. Scott Hahn, and I want to welcome you to the Road to Amas, a podcast from the St. Paul Center.

Today, I have the joy of sharing a special conversation.

I recently had with my good friend, Bishop Robert Barron.

This recording took place at the St. Paul Center's annual gala in Nashville, Tennessee.

Bishop Barron and I have been friends for many years,

and it was a joy and an honor to sit down with him to have this conversation.

I pray that you find this dialogue, both inspiring and impactful, and may the Lord richly bless you.

My first question was going to address an expression I've heard him use on other occasions, and that is the

dumbing down of Catholicism. I couldn't believe you opened with that. It's like, yes. Bishop

Baron, you've also used the expression beige Catholicism. And, you know, at one level, it's unfortunate

because, you know, in the aftermath of Vatican II in the 70s, you know, at one level, it's unfortunate because, you know, in the aftermath of Vatican 2 in the 70s, you know, and it was sort of a diluted sort of thing.

But at the same time, I don't think it was necessarily altogether neutral because I feel as though there was a secularization, a kind of, yeah, so if you would address that.

That was one of the first things I ever published when I got back from my doctoral studies,

a little article on beige Catholicism.

And what I had in my mind was the church where I grew up, St. John of the Cross Church in Western Springs, Illinois.

They built the church in the 70s, so the high water mark of that style. When church

buildings were meant to be without decoration, bland, brick walls, you know, my mother used to say,

here I am praying to a brick wall, because she came out of an older tradition, you know.

But I had that church in mind when I wrote that article on

beige. And yes, it was conditioned. I mentioned Descartes. I mentioned Luther. But there are the people

that invented modernity, and that became the dominant philosophy. I've always liked the line

of Edward Schillowbeck, someone I don't really care for that much, but he said, the church

...