Hello, everybody. This is Ravi Gupta and welcome to a special episode of The Lost Debate Show.

Today, I am interviewing Greg Berman and Aubrey Fox, who are the authors of Gradual,

the case for incremental change in a radical age. And this is a super fascinating book that we're

going to spend this episode talking about. But they are both distinguished in their

own rights. Greg is the Distinguished Fellow of Practice at the Henry Frank Guggenheim Foundation.

He also serves as the co-editor of Vital City and writes a regular column about nonprofit leadership

for city and state. He was previously the executive director for the

Center for Court Innovation, and he is the author of four previous books, including trial and

error in criminal justice reform, learning from failure. And Aubrey Fox is the executive director

of New York City's criminal justice agency, which is the city's main pretrial services agency,

working with the New York City's

mayor's office of criminal justice. And in this role, he oversees the major operations and

future development of the CJA, which carries the very admirable mission of reducing pretrial

detention. Gentlemen, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

This book, it really advances an argument that I think we've made on this podcast at various points.

But give us this thesis in the clear as possible way.

So you're essentially saying that we live in this age right now where people,

our politics, especially, if you look at either side of the aisle, politicians are rewarded for

sort of sweeping proclamations, proposing radical change. And you argue that both the change that we

tend to see nowadays is incremental, and you also make a

normative claim that the change should be incremental. Is that right? Yeah, that's basically the

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