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But I think the question that keeps coming back to me as I read the book, right, is that it's,

the development that you talk about has really created a new field of power, right?

It is, it is scrambled people's ability to act collectively.

Wouldn't you say? I mean, it's, and it's, and it's turned because these organizations, community foundations are really where the resources are, right? Not necessarily in local governments. It's turned public attention to them as solutions as opposed to government.

That tends to scramble collective action.

But it also, it distances, I mean, the resources are in these communities, but other things aren't like regulatory authority, for example, still remains, you know, firmly within the power of the local or sometimes is preempted by the state government. But the, but that's often the,

the switch you need to flip. And the other thing that I think is interesting is like the extent

to which, and maybe you can talk about this, like

the kinds of solutions that now naturally enter into the conversation have changed.

You know, the thing that you open the book with is talking about this social impact bond.

And it's just, I wonder if you could actually go into it because I think it matters that

the solutions that are on the table, you know, to these problems have a way of, while they

don't solve the problem, obviously, they perpetuate this idea that the solution is always

just around the corner and that like give us five more

years, give us 10 more years, give us 30 million more dollars and give us an army of evaluators

and social science and like out of work social scientists to do the evaluation work and we'll

solve this goddamn problem. So can you like talk? I mean like there's a solutionism that is very rooted in some of these,

in these projects.

But and so I wonder if you could talk about like that aspect of it as well.

The solutionism of it.

Yeah, it seems both sort of so rooted in optimism and a pragmatism about how to do something

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