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So to start us out, there's a term that you use in this book that we find very helpful and talk about a lot on this show in many ways and forms.

Can you start us off by talking about what you mean by administrative violence?

Yeah, definitely.

I think in order to, I want to say a couple

things about the context in which the book was emerging that made me need to name administrative

violence and point people towards the administrative state as the as the place to think about

trans law. And that's that, you know, I came of age mid-90s through the 2000s in the context of like a

mainstreamed gay and lesbian rights advocacy framework, you know, forwarded by these like white

led legal orgs that were very much working in the realm people call equality law or civil rights law.

Like the realm of law that's like anti-discrimination laws, hate crimes laws, can you get

married, can you join the military?

Like those are like these classic places that I think ordinary folks think of as what

rights is and also that like legal scholars and lawyers think of as like what constitutes like

are you a full citizen and it's part of a narrative in the U.S. about black people having

been excluded from that and then being included in that meaning that like anti-black racism

is over.

It's like this nationalist US narrative about that being the place where equality lives.

And I'm coming of age as a person, you know, raised poor, really concerned about welfare and immigration policy and all these things and feeling really frustrated as I come out as a queer person and later trans person by the focus on those areas because I'm, you know, reading critical race theory and I'm engaging in various kinds of like, you know, street based anti-police and other, you know, anti-Juliani radical work.

And I'm like, we all know that civil rights law didn't do that, that this progress narrative is a lie,

that you can say that people, you can say that racism is illegal in the United States while racism actually worsens.

And while, like, we build this giant, you know, prison and policing

...