If we think about what the entire constellation of relations and possibilities are that envelop any individual who eventually gets plucked out of their life,

now what abolition is about is changing everything,

and that means all of that constellation of relations,

of human environment relations. Welcome to the Death Panel.

To support the show and get access to our second weekly bonus episode, become a patron at patreon.com slash death panel pod.

Our patron episode this week is an interview with psychiatric epidemiologist Seth Prins about the school to prison pipeline.

It's fantastic.

So if you want to listen to that, patreon.com slash death panel pod.

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Today I am joined by prison abolitionist and

carceral geographer Ruth Wilson Gilmore. She is the author of Golden Gulag, Prisons, Surplus,

Crisis, and Opposition in Globalizing California, which came out in 2007. And a new volume of her

work was just published in May by Verso called Abolition Geography, Essays Towards Liberation, that brings together three decades of writing into one big book.

Ruthie, welcome to the Death Panel.

It's truly an honor to have you here on the show.

Thanks.

It's great to be here, and I look forward to our conversation.

I think most regular listeners of Death Panel will be familiar with your work.

We joke that there are two books that we mention and cite on the show so often that it should

be on a Death Panel bingo card.

...