Talking Smack: the surprising benefits of “Trash Talk” with Rafi Kohan

The Jon Gordon Podcast

Jon Gordon

Leadership, Teamwork, Success, Positiveuniversity, Jongordon, Health & Fitness, Positivity, Education, Positiveu, Happiness, Teambuilding

4.8 • 1.2K Ratings

🗓️ 13 June 2025

⏱️ 30 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

On this episode of The Jon Gordon Podcast, I sit down with Rafi Kohan, author, cultural observer, and the mind behind Trash Talk: The Only Book About Destroying Your Rivals That Isn’t Total Garbage.

What started as a casual Zoom between new friends quickly turned into a lively deep dive into the world of competitive banter, all captured here in real time.

Together, Rafi and I explore the fascinating, untold science and history of trash talk. He breaks down why trash talk is more than just gamesmanship on the field, it’s a fundamental part of human behavior, threaded through ancient stories from the Bible to the Homeric poems, and alive in everything from politics to playgrounds. We get into how trash talk manipulates attention, anxiety, motivation, and even performance, and why some of the world’s greatest athletes and public figures use it to their advantage.

Rafi shares wild stories, including some next-level antics from a soccer goalie who turned mental distraction into an art form, reveals why even the most positive folks can’t resist a little friendly ribbing (looking at you, Ken Blanchard), and reflects on how the lessons of trash talking stretch far beyond sports, touching on politics, performance, resilience, and even moral character.

We also riff on modern-day masters of the craft (think Muhammad Ali to Donald Trump) and the fine line between competition that lifts us up versus rivalry that tears us down. If you’ve ever wondered why we talk smack, how to handle it when it happens, or what it really says about us, you’ll find insight and plenty of laughs in this episode.

Whether you’re a serious competitor, a sports fan, or someone who’s just curious about why people do what they do, this conversation brings fresh perspective, energy, and practical takeaways on embracing pressure, building grit, and becoming the kind of rival that makes everyone better. And yes, there’s a little trash talk between us too.

If you want to rethink the way you handle challenges, on the court, at work, or in life, this episode is for you.

Rafi Kohan is an award-winning sports journalist and dynamic keynote speaker. He is the author, most recently, of Trash Talk: The Only Book About Destroying Your Rivals That Isn't Total Garbage, which explores the phenomenon of verbal gamesmanship in sports, and everywhere, and what it reveals about our ability to perform under pressure.

About Rafi,

Kohan's first book, The Arena, is a wide-ranging examination of the modern American sports stadium and was a finalist for the 2018 PEN/ESPN Award for Literary Sports Writing. Previously, Kohan has served as deputy editor at the New York Observer and as executive editorial director for the Atlantic's creative marketing studio. His writing has appeared in numerous publications, including GQ, the New York Times, Men's Journal, Rolling Stone, and the Wall Street Journal, among many others, and his thought leadership on the surprising benefits of trash talk has been featured on Fast Company, Scientific American, NPR's Science Friday, BBC's Unexpected Elements, and Re:Thinking with Adam Grant.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	Welcome to the John Gordon podcast, where we share John's interviews with guests, as well as key strategies and lessons from his keynotes, coaching, and more.
0:09.3	We want to encourage you to check out Johngordoncertified.com if you're interested in growing as a leader, coach, speaker, or trainer.
0:15.6	When you get certified, you'll be able to teach, coach, and train others on John's most impactful mindset, leadership,
0:21.1	and teamwork principles. For more information, visit john gordoncertified.com. That's J-O-N-Gordon
0:26.9	certified.com. Now let's jump in to today's episode.
0:31.6	Hey, this is John Gordon with the John Gordon podcast. And today I am with Rafi Kohan.
0:37.3	Rafi, how you doing?
0:38.5	I'm awesome, John.
0:39.6	It's so great to be with you.
0:40.9	Well, the funny thing is you and I were just talking and was just going to be a Zoom
0:44.0	where we got to know each other.
0:45.0	And I said, you know what?
0:45.7	Let's turn this into a podcast because I already found what you were saying.
0:49.6	Interesting, fascinating.
0:51.3	So let's dive in. Right now you have a yellow book behind you. You have a few yellow
0:55.8	books. Tell me what that book is that I'm looking at. I do. Yeah. Got a couple extra copies
1:02.2	in case I lose one. That is my latest book. It is called Trash Talks, the only book about
1:07.9	destroying your rivals that isn't total garbage. And as I was sharing a
1:11.9	moment ago, it's actually the first ever book about trash talk because as much as we think about
1:19.0	trash talk sort of like culturally, you know, it sort of runs the world around us, everything from
1:24.7	clickbait headlines to social media beefs to reality TV shows to
1:30.0	everything else, to our politics and professional wrestling and beyond, nobody's ever really
	...

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