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Just search new here. Welcome to the HBRIDA cast from Harvard Business Review.

I'm Sarah Green Carmichael.

Today I'm talking with Kira Hudson Banks,

an assistant professor in the Department of Psychology

at St. Louis University and a principal

at the consulting firm, the Mouse and the Elephant.

Kira, thank you so much for talking with us today.

Thanks for having me.

So, Kira, you have studied in your academic research issues of race and diversity

and you've also consulted with companies to help put

inclusion into practice with the mouse in the element. And based on that expertise you

recently wrote an article for HPR and how managers can facilitate healthy conversations about race at their companies.

Even before, and I think this is key, even before there's been any kind of particular incident

to spark such a conversation, why do you think it's so important for leaders to talk about

race before there's some kind of catalyst? So there are a few reasons. The main one is

that when things are difficult it raises the stakes and it's even more difficult to talk

...