Hi, this is Sarah from the Squiggly Careers podcast. And in this shortcut, I'm going to talk about how to

influence people who disagree with you. And I was thinking about the best way to bring this to life

and I thought it was probably through an example. So I want you to imagine I'm in a conversation

with somebody who disagrees with the idea of squiggly careers. Can you imagine? But it does happen. Not that often

anymore, but it used to happen a lot more. And I think the start of that conversation, so when you

get a sense, perhaps you're surprised by it or perhaps you knew that it might be coming, somebody

disagrees with you. Often our inclination might be to keep on talking, keep on persuading, you're trying to win someone

over to your way of thinking. I don't think that works that well. I think you are much better

off being open to listening because through that listening, that is how you then learn more

about what's getting in the way, why somebody actually really

disagrees. So if someone didn't like the idea of squiggly careers, let's imagine they said,

I just don't think it will work in our company or in our culture. Rather than then trying to

give them lots of reasons why it will work, I would now say, oh, that's really interesting.

Like, what do you think would get in the way?

What has worked really well?

So just listen and learn.

And if that first conversation, that's all you've done, that's okay.

I think sometimes, you know, really kind of big influencing takes a while.

You don't achieve it all in one conversation.

Secondly, I want to involve that person in challenge and building. So what I might say to them is,

let's say we were talking about careers in their company. What has really worked well for careers

in your organisation so far? What have people responded really well to? Or I might get them talking

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