Hello and welcome to Money Talks, a special extra podcast from Slate Money, where we chat with brilliant and interesting people.

I'm Emily Peck. I write the markets newsletter at Axios and co-host Slate Money, and I'm here today with not one but two brilliant

and interesting people. Sumaya Keynes, a columnist and podcaster for the Financial Times, and Chad

Bound, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, who was recently

chief economist at the State Department in the last year of the Biden administration.

Welcome, Sumaya, and Chad. Thanks for having us. Well, we're here not just to talk, but to talk about

your amazing new book, How to Win a Trade War. Sumaya, in a recent column for the FT, you include

the classic line, no one wins a trade war. So what are we doing with this book title? Can you

unpack that for me? Oh, if I had a cookie for every person who is like, isn't the answer,

no one wins a trade war, is your book one page long? I would need a new wardrobe. Yeah, so this has

been the classic line, right? No one wins a trade war. But I think,

you know, the parallel is with real wars, right? So think about a hot war. No one wins a hot war either.

They're terrible. People die. It's generally horrific. But at the end, one side can come out

victorious. Maybe they have more autonomy. It is possible in a hot water minimize your wounds.

And so the book is called How to Win a Trade War. And we're slightly cheating. We're kind of

expanding the definition of winning to be broader than I am better off than I would have been had

I not fought this trade war. But the central premise of the book is that we're not in a

world where it's okay to make that argument anymore because the trade wars have come to us.

And so not fighting just isn't really an option anymore.

You guys told John Stewart recently that it's the trade war we're in right now started

on Liberation Day, as the president calls it,

in April of last year. I don't know. I think the trade war, I mean, that was a big offensive

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