If we're going to invite people into this kind of gospel practice in their life,

that there is actually healing to be found in presenting the truth of our sin before the Lord.

If we're going to really meaningfully invite people into that,

I think we have to be people who know that way ourselves and know what it is to live by grace in our own lives,

not just commending a gospel to them that we don't know experientially.

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rahm. My guest today is Dr.

Jamin Gagan, who has a PhD from the best university in the world, that is University of Aberdeen, and he is associate professor at Talbot School of Theology at Ballet University and the director of the Healthy Pastor Initiative at finishing the task.

He is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or The Way of the Lamb, an outstanding book, and the author of his recently released book, Pastoral Confessions, The Healthy Path to Faithful Ministry. I got my copy

right here for those of you watching on YouTube. Really, really enjoyed this conversation with

Jamin. He's incredibly brilliant, has tons of pastoral experience. Most of all, I just found

him to be incredibly down to earth and humble.

Really enjoyed this conversation, I think you will too.

So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Dr. Jamon Gaghan.

Jamon, good to have you on Theology and Ra.

Thanks for taking time to do this.

Really excited to talk to you.

Joy to be with you.

So you were a pastor for how many years before you became a professor?

Yeah, 20 years, full-time, local church ministry pastor in kind of every role imaginable

and almost every ecclesial environment imaginable, at least in the U.S.

I was a youth pastor at a small Nandem church.

I was kind of associate pastor who oversaw youth and family and various things at a Lutheran

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