Hi and welcome to the trial UK. I'm Caroline Cheatham. And I'm Liz Hull. Liz, this is our third special episode now on the proposal from David Lamy to get rid of jury trials for thousands and thousands and thousands

of cases, those which would result in three years and less of a sentence. That's the sort of

benchmark he's set. And what he wants to do, of course we know, is allow more judges sitting on

their own to decide these cases, allow magistrate sitting

in the magistrates court to take on more of these cases and scrap the right really for

some defendants who he deems are playing the system, gaming the system, being able to choose

a jury trial. Now what he says is that people are doing this because

they know it'll take a long time. Therefore, victims of crime may well decide, I've had enough.

I'm not pursuing this. I'm going to drop it. Now, this isn't going away, Liz. There's more reports

today in the Sunday Times and other newspapers of a backlash to this. We know last week we spoke to Mary

Pryor, we spoke to Chris Henley, Casey, to very, very, very, very senior barristers. In fact,

we've spoken to loads of people and we can't find anyone who agrees with this as a way to bring

down the backlog. But again, today in the newspapers,

there's more resentment and concern about what he's suggesting. Yeah, so Chris Henley, who we

spoke to last week, Caroline, is basically accusing David Lammy today of being cynical and cynically

using statistics really to

push through these proposals, which he says as a senior barrister that none of his colleagues

are supportive of. He's come out and said that David Lammy's using this figure of 60% of all

rape victims walking away from their cases because of the

court process. And Chris Henley is saying, well, actually, that's not strictly true. The majority of

those, he says, walk away before charge, before it gets to court. And actual fact, he's saying

only 8% walk away once the case reaches court. So there's obviously

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