Hello and welcome to Under the Skin from Luminary.

This week I spoke with Sarah Chase.

Sarah is an author, journalist, and has worked as a political adviser.

She writes primarily about the nature of corruption.

Her books include Theaves of State, Why Corruption Friends, Global Security, and most recently

everybody knows corruption.

That's what it's called in America.

In America it's called Corruption in America and what's at stake.

They come out in paperback or on paperback or as paperbacks.

On the 16th of November in the United States.

Sebastian Junga recommended Sarah when he was on Under the Skin recently because I kept

bringing up, I suppose, systemic corruption and the possibility of alternative systems.

Eventually Sebastian Junga, growing frustrated with questions I suppose he felt was outside

of his area of expertise, recommended Sarah Chase, who was a fantastic interview, a lovely

conversation, a kind seeming woman who sometimes like I like to, when she says she lived

in the woods, Jen, feels, her, her, filled a bucket from a stream.

Yeah, she seems like she's a woman who went against the social norms.

She's gone on a social norms, Jen, she's been in Afghanistan, she's been in the Pentagon.

She spoke consistently in for a long time.

Jen, you're not doing your leaning to the mic there, I know.

You told me last time not to lean in.

I, well, I just should lean in, even though I'm not listening to this on headphones,

...