Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. Reminder, I'm live streaming

tonight. You know, I'm coming for Hassan and destiny.

We'll see how it goes.

8.30 in the east, come hang. One thing I've been wanting to do on the podcast, I've told you guys this after the election is I've been trying to get a wider breadth of views on the show. But I have some policies, which is like no bullshitters. Sometimes people can slip through the cracks on this. and it's a little challenging on the MAGA side, getting no bullshitters. Because, like, Trump, by his nature forces advocates to bullshit because he's, like, all over the place on the issues, and he himself is a bullshitter. And he rugg-poles people, like, all the time on things by changing his views in two seconds. And so I've been begging today's guest to come on the show for like months,

literally begging. Our DMs are embarrassing. It's like the lover that you have sent nine

straight DMs to. For this reason, he's an unapologetic right-wing populist. And there's a bunch

stuff we don't agree on, but he's not full of shit. And that's been evident recently as he's a lot of consistent criticism of Trump, as he has betrayed the popular base on Epstein and Iran in particular. So with that glazing intro, it's the coast of breaking points, Sagarin Jetty. How you doing, brother? Hey, thank you for having me, Tim.

I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I'll take it.

I'll take it.

Okay, well, obviously, you feel a little nervous because it's been months. I wouldn't say I was nervous. I won't be honest. I mean, I was conflicted about coming on your show. Why? Well, you know, I think bulwark style politics has been kind of the antithesis of like

everything I believe. This is not really a shot at you personally, but Weekly Standard and Bill

Crystal, Jonathan Lass, a lot of the people who you work with, Sarah Langewell. I mean, a lot of

these people I would consider like my ideological enemies. And also at a policy level, these are the very people who architected some of the types of politics, which I have basically dedicated my career to try to smash down.

So I was like, well, you know, what's the appropriate level?

But at the end of the day, you know, I think at the, you know, some, some discussion across,

across these lines is probably important. And I finally decided to do it because I thought, I want to expose, hopefully your audience to, let's say, Trump criticism, which they may not

have heard previously and to potentially get them to change some of their ideas, at the very least engage with some ideas which they may think that they disagree with. So that's why I decided to do it. I love that. We are kind of on opposite size of the horseshoe. You know, we and Graham talked about this a little bit as well, who's more of the left populace. Sure. We'll get into it. There may be more areas of agreement than disagreement than we think. And growth is good. You know, there's been growth. And, you know, events have affected people's views on things. So maybe events have certainly affected some of our views on things, some of the weekly standard types. And maybe increasingly events will start to affect your views on things. We'll see as we go over the course of the podcast. I also want to congratulate you for being the first person to do the Tucker Carlson

podcast and the Bullwark podcast. So kudos to you on that. I know. I saw that. I was like, wow, you told me I should get a New York Times profile. And I was like, I really, that's like the last that I want. I was like, that's, no, absolutely not. That's the last thing that I want. At the end of the day, I'm pretty much the same person. You know, I wouldn't say anything differently on Tucker than I would say on your show.

explain your worldview to people for people who don't know.

Like you kind of just did it by contrasting against weekly standard world, but like what is it the proactive Sega worldview?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think the way that I really see the world, and this is why a lot of the stuff

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