This is John Batchel, a conversation with the author Josh Ireland, his new book, The Death of Trotsky,

the story of Joseph Stalin gaining control of the Soviet Union in the first half of the 20th century

and putting all of the apparatus to work to track down and murder a man named Trotsky, who called himself Trotsky,

Lev Trotsky, who'd been Stalin's rival

for Lenin's attention in the early days of the revolution. Stalin ordered this murder over many

years, and when it came, it is a surprise to everyone that Stalin reacted so strangely. Here is the beginning of the story,

the two men and their styles before the Politburo.

This is the 1920s before Trotsky was thrown out of the party,

thrown out of the country,

and stalked by Stalin's agents,

one of whom eventually murdered Trotsky.

Josh Ireland, much of this, this is the first hour, the second hour comes in 24 hours.

The death of Trotsky.

Here's Josh on charisma versus psychosis or paranoia or mass murderer whatever more later

addict josh i don't think he was charismatic in the same sort of classic sense as trotsky so i

think trotsky's charisma was a very i guess sort of 18 century charisma, the sort of person who could stand up and inspire people just by the quality of his speech, his eloquence, his appearance.

You know, that Trotsky was always a kind of dandy, you know, he wore beautiful white linen suits, and a pound's nairs, and he had this wonderful sweep of thick hair whereas trotsky and

starlin was sort of short and laconic and he walked with a limp and he had some thick

peasant moustache and pockmarked cheeks from smallpox so he and he never really you know he wasn't a man that felt that it was necessary to speak unless he absolutely had something to say.

And I think Trotsky's big mistake right from the very first time he met Stalin was to write Trotland off to sort of, he described him as being like a grey blur because I think

for Starlet for Trotsky unless you could speak you know off the cuff beautifully for 25 minutes you know you weren't

worth considering but what Stalin was was I mean even if he didn't have the same sort of dazzling range of education as Trotsky, he was a relentless autodictor. You know, he thought, he learned, he observed, he watched. And I think he also had a much more realistic and practical sense of how you built and acquired power.

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