I'm John Batsuo, Charles Spicer, whose wonderfully rich new book is a telling of the period of the 1930s prior to the catastrophe of the Second War that fills in the missing pieces of the conversation between Berlin and London, as they circled each other, saying,

we're not going to do that again. We're not going to destroy another civilization. We must

find a way.

1936, the presumption is that, oh, well, Hitler's threatening, but he won't move before the Olympics.

He does. He just did. He moved into the Rhineland. And now the

Olympics, an opportunity, again, for the two cultures to deal with each other in a positive way.

Again, our protagonists, are amateur spies, but they're professional, German-speaking, seekers of peace. They're seeking a way

to avoid the catastrophe of the Great War. And they are all invited to the Olympics, including

those who are sympathetic with the Nazis, with Hitler in particular. And Van Sittart is whined

and dined, the most important civil servant, if I understand

correctly, with a massive office in government and great power can pick up a phone and

call anybody.

He's whined and dined by the Germans.

What does he make of it, Charles?

Well, he comes back alarmed, alarmed by the regime,

but somewhat placated because the Nazis do wine and dine him so effectively. It's a very good

question that he, and genuinely, he wasn't wrong because that's a high point in Hitler's

positive perception of Britain. And he genuinely did want peace. He wasn't just playing a game at that

point with the British. Now, the terms of the deal he would have wanted with Britain would have been a Faustian

pact, which would be, you give me free hand on continental Europe to do what I want, and I won't interfere

with your empire. And that never would have been acceptable. I think most people, most historians agree on that.

But he still thought he had a chance with that. So he was genuinely

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