S8 Ep270: CONSCIENCE AND CONVERSION Colleague Mark Clifford, The Troublemaker. The 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre radicalized Lai, who transitioned from textiles to media, founding Next magazine and Apple Daily to champion democracy. Realizing the brutality of the
The John Batchelor Show
John Batchelor
4.5 • 2.8K Ratings
🗓️ 3 January 2026
⏱️ 10 minutes
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1930S HK
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| 0:00.0 | This is CBS I on the World. I'm John Batchel, visiting with Mark Clifford, the author of the new book, The Troublemaker, about Jimmy Lai. |
| 0:09.2 | He is now a multimillionaire, doing very well, keeps a pet bear, has a beautiful family, and he's about to transform himself into the man we know today, who is deeply, deeply imprisoned by the |
| 0:24.1 | Chinese Communist Party that was part of the story of his success because China is opening to |
| 0:31.5 | capitalism. And Jimmy's in the right place, and he believes that hard work brings luck, and luck |
| 0:36.8 | brings hard work. |
| 0:38.5 | So between 1975 and the late 80s, he prospers, he travels, he eats at very good restaurants. |
| 0:48.9 | He has ideas all the time. |
| 0:50.6 | He's quite inventive. |
| 0:52.4 | And then we come to Tiananmen. And that is a nightmare for China, |
| 0:58.8 | for the people who suffered there, and for everybody who believes that they should be remembered. |
| 1:04.7 | And Jimmy Lai is one of them. Mark, therein lies a challenge. What moved Jimmy Lai, who is a factory guy, who knows that you need good relations with |
| 1:15.7 | everyone in order to move your product, including the local apparatchiks of the party? |
| 1:21.0 | What moves him to identify with the victims of Tiananmen? |
| 1:26.4 | Well, he identified first with his students before they were victims. |
| 1:30.5 | He, um, uh, from his Giordano, his retail clothing chain, he started making and selling, |
| 1:36.8 | uh, t-shirts with pictures of student leaders on the front and sending the proceeds up to |
| 1:42.2 | China. |
| 1:42.8 | He sent tents. |
| 1:43.6 | He sent money. Um, he was all in with his students. He sent tents. He sent money. |
| 1:44.9 | He was all in with his students. |
| 1:47.1 | He had been enamored of Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms, which had started roughly |
| 1:52.5 | a decade earlier. |
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