This is Karen Hunter and welcome to the hub. I first met Tim Wise about 20 years ago. He was speaking at a Brooklyn church and I was

dumbfounded. I have never heard a white man speak so impassionately about race and racism and I

when I got my radio show at Sirius XM I was excited to have him on because this guy gets it.

But what he also gets which is the same thing that Jane

Elliot and others, Robert De Angelo, Aaron Belfer, and a few others that I have

gone to to have these discussions and I was obsessed in the first couple of years

with having this discussion because I felt like if we're going to solve the problem of

race and racism in America we need white people on board. I've changed a little bit

but what I understand even more is that race is just a tool.

It's a made up construct, it doesn't really exist, but what we're really dealing with is power

and what we're really dealing with is

figuring out how to check power so that people aren't

oppressed.

And so whether we talk about it in the framework of racism.

That matters not because the reality is Tim Wise is speaking up

for something far greater.

And so my interview with him, hope you enjoy it,

but it reminds me of the Martin Nem'emoller poem. It reminds me of the Martin Neemoller poem,

first they came for where he talks about first they came for the socialists and I didn't speak out because I was not a

socialist then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak out because I was

not a trade unionist then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak out because

I was not a Jew then they came from me and there was no one left to speak for me.

...