This is Karen Hunter and welcome to the hub. And joining us in conversation, she was been here before, we talked about her

amazing book about black mermaids because the first mermaids in the world were

black because they had to. Sheppard folk through the middle passages

and before that even, her book is called Shallow Water,

Shallow Waters is available right now.

We'll tweet it out, it's a beautiful novel,

but I brought her back because she

said she was a spiritual psychologist and I had no idea what that was so I was like

come back on a wellness Wednesday let's have this conversation let me welcome

back to the show Anita Co Patch. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. To be here. Okay.

Okay. Before we jump into spiritual psychology, which I think actually this is in line. Tanya was having a conversation that she dragged me into and I'm here for it about women and there's a movement to remove that term and to not, you know, call people women and all of this stuff that's going on.

Poor Margaret Atwood who gave us the Hamays tail is being hemmed up right now because she's like,

nope, I'm a woman, I'm sticking by and it was like, but gee, what, you know,

how do we navigate these difficult topics spiritually?

Because spiritually were all spirits and beings.

So there's no gender in the spirit realm, is there gender?

Who knows? We shall see one day, right? But I would say, you know, with

spiritual psychology, the healthy person is someone who can love and be loved,

right?

And so it's very simple, but not always so easy and a big part of that is loving ourselves right and

when we get into all of these different conversations,

these are different levels of existence.

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