Hello, everybody. This is Robbie Gupta. And in this special episode, we are talking to Richard

Collenberg, who we spoke to recently about the affirmative action decision at the Supreme Court,

but we wanted to invite him back because he wrote this incredible book called Excluded,

how snob zoning, nimbism, and class bias build the walls we don't see.

Richard is an incredible thinker.

He's written so much about education, but as we'll talk about, education and housing,

are so inextricably linked.

That's a word I have hard time saying.

And so we're going to talk all about the connection between those two

and why we can't really solve

for our education crisis in this country until we solve the housing crisis.

We'll also dive into racial inequality and economic inequality and how those two can be coupled,

but how the trends in those two areas might be heading in different directions.

So Richard is amazing.

We had a good time talking to him recently. And in this conversation, we'll get it even deeper with the benefit of a longer interview and a little bit of distance between us and that

Supreme Court decision. So Richard, welcome to the podcast. Thanks.

Great to be with you again, Robbie. Well, Richard, so you start your book by talking about how

you, like me, like spent a lot of time talking about education and writing about education,

thinking about education. But you basically write at the beginning of your book that you couldn't ignore the link between

education and housing any longer.

That's right.

I start the book by talking about being in Charlotte, Mecklenburg County, North Carolina.

...