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I'm John Bachelor.

A conversation with my colleague John Bolton, former national security advisor, former ambassador to the United Nations,

about sanctions, especially with regard to the revelations of sanctions busting,

sanctions beating, sanctions avoiding during Ukraine conflict.

John speaks to how sanctions are guaranteed to disappoint,

even from the beginning because of the unequal sides,

without law enforcement at hand, is seeking to impose an economic burden on the aggressor state,

on the one to be punished.

On the other hand, the aggressor state, the one being punished,

spends all of its waking hours with sophisticated staff to defeat, to avoid,

to go past the sanctions.

And the result is that Russia, for example today, enjoys great amount of money and guarantee

by selling its oil not to Europe, which is given up on Russian oil and Russian natural gas,

but instead to India and China and other parts to the east.

Sanctions busting must be matched by sanctions keeping, enforcing, punishing, policing.

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