All I can gather from what you're saying is almost a sense of complete hopelessness.

Again, under a re-elected Donald Trump, my sense is he's going to be massively emboldened,

and they are going to escalate their attacks on immigrants.

They are going to escalate, they're going to repeal twice as many environmental regulations in the second term as they did in the first.

They are going to, you know, the attack on abortion rights, the attack on unions,

and it's just going to be overwhelmed. You're never even going to know which way to look

because of all the awful shit they are doing day to day, and we're going to be in a real

defensive crouch. It seems to me that, you know, your perspective does not lead me to say,

well, I want that then, because that makes it easier. I don't think there's

really any argument that could be easier to organize unions under an NLRB that is actively hostile

to them and is trying to, and is overturning every pro-union decision under a Supreme

Court that is actively hostile to unions. It almost seems to me that

the only conclusion that can come from your perspective is a very bleak kind of nothing is better with

either of them. So you might as well have the honest guy who will kill you than the person who

will do it with a smile on. And it doesn't seem to me like an argument that Trump is better.

It seems to me like an argument that nothing is better than anything else.

Well, I do think that there is some hope. I don't think it's the case that in the second

term, Republicans are generally more aggressive than in the first. Quite the opposite.

I think the Bush administration, the overwhelming majority of the bad things it did, you know,

leaving Kyoto going into Iraq and Afghanistan, the Patriot Act and so on, the overwhelming

majority came out of the first term. And in the second term, Cheney was sidelined and the

administration was much more skittish about taking risks. Similarly with Reagan, most of the

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