Building a coffee business?

Serving the best Americano in town is up to you. But winning back time and growing your business, leave that to sum-up. Take orders and payments anywhere with the new SumUp terminal. Turn occasional customers into regulars with a free loyalty program. And with the SumUp point-of-sale system, you'll always know when you're running low on your best-selling blends. Visit sumup.co.uk to learn more.

This is John Batchel, conversation with colleague Kelly Curry,

former ambassador to the United Nations,

now returned to Think Tank Atlantic Council,

commenting on the disorder in the streets in Jakarta in Indonesia, while the president of Indonesia travels to Beijing suddenly

to attend the parade. Kelly explains the governance is in a cycle, authoritarianism and

anti-authoritarianism. Here, Kelly explains Indonesia, an up and rising nation for the 21st century, but more of this later tonight.

So this is, again, this is a long story in Indonesia. You have a lot of tension since independence in Indonesia

between the democratic desires of the Indonesian people and their

desire to be treated with dignity and humanity and a difficult to govern place, let's be honest

here, thousands of islands spread across a huge area, large ethnically diverse population,

underdeveloped.

And so it's a struggle to govern.

I worked at the local level and at the national level in Indonesia on governance,

so I've seen this firsthand.

And so the government tends to go back and forth between control and authoritarianism and kind of shambolic muddling along democracy. And the people of the country, you know,

if it goes too far in one direction, if it goes too far toward anarchy, people get

mad and they vote in or they bring in a more authoritarian figure. If it goes too far towards

authoritarianism, they will push back on that too because it is, there is a very strong,

and especially since the 1999 election and the democratic revolution of the late 90s,

there is a very strong democratic identity.

...