I'm John Batchelor, and later on tonight, a man of iron, my conversation with Troy Sennick,

the author of the new turbulent life and improbable presidency of Grover Cleveland.

It is a lengthy conversation not only about Cleveland the man,

but also about how different the presidency was at the end of the 19th century compared to the 21st century.

Again, later on tonight, a man of iron, the turbulent life and improbable presidency of Grover Cleveland.

Here is a piece of the conversation I have with Troy Seneca.

Grover Cleveland is a man who takes the verb preside very seriously in presidency.

This is a guy who, as you suggest, had used the veto very aggressively as mayor of Buffalo.

I'd use the veto very aggressively as governor of New York.

And his conception of the

presidency and a presidential power, especially in his first term, is in many ways negative in nature.

I say in the book that Cleveland kind of sees himself as a kind of ombudsman in chief.

This is a guy who thinks that the kind of sees himself as a kind of ombudsman in chief, right? This is a guy who thinks that the responsibility that comes with heading the executive branch is really to keep

the legislative branch in check. It's just as important to stop the depredations of Congress as it

is to have any sort of affirmative executive agenda.

And so that is a constant that you see throughout both of Cleveland's terms, although, and I'm

sure we'll get to this later, in his second term, he does evolve a bit.

He does begin to look a bit more like a modern president. It takes the lead.

It's a little more aggressive, a little more often. But Cleveland, and this is one of the reasons that he is so beloved by many libertarians today, many limited government conservatives, is a guy who really takes the negative power of the presidency seriously. And as a result, he

vetoes 414 pieces of legislation in his first term, which is more than all 21 of his predecessors

combined. So this is a pretty central element of the presidential style of Grover Cleveland.

That's Troy Seneck speaking, the author of A Man of Iron,

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