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This is John Batchel, conversation with colleague Ernesto Aruja,

former Foreign Minister of the Republic of Brazil. He served the Bolsonaro government.

Here he comments on Lula de Silva, making a strange, strange evolution.

When Maduro and Lula first joined each other after Lula's third presidential election,

they were sympathico. In fact, it was Petro of Colombia, Maduro of Venezuela, and Lula de Silva

standing as a big three.

Now Petra's wandered into unhappiness, profound unhappiness.

He's unhappy.

His legislature is unhappy.

The people of Colombia are unhappy.

Maduro is now declared a terrorist of a leading terror cartel,

narco-terror cartel called the Cartel of the Sun.

And Lula de Silva doesn't take their phone calls.

We could guess.

We don't know.

...