This is John Batchel, colleague Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace,

looking to a world where NATO is not led by the U.S., not even necessarily called NATO.

And Europe working together is Judy on what is possible after and if the U.S. leaves under the Trump administration. More of this tonight. People who

will put pressure in the Pentagon, the State Department, and even in the White House, you know,

Trump, you cannot leave. It's actually legally very difficult to leave an organization, by the way.

This is the first thing. Secondly, no, Germany cannot lead.

What Germany can do, along with Great Britain, which is a very prominent member, NATO,

and with France and the Netherlands, which is led by, NATO is now led by a Dutch former

Prime Minister, Mark Router, and with Finland, the new members in Sweden,

I mean, NATO can actually get, can work much, much, much more closely together.

And even if Trump is a bit wobbly and so unpredictable,

when most of the NATO countries are not going to be beholden to Trump's unpredictability.

They have to get on with what they have to do is the defense of Europe, the Arctic,

how to give much more assistance, military training and assistance to Ukraine

and to other countries on its eastern flanks.