This is John Batchel, a conversation with colleague Anatole Lavin of the Quincy Institute about the

concerns that Europe has that the U.S. is leaving NATO and concerns that Europe has that it's being

left out of the negotiations between Moscow and the Kremlin, between the Kremlin and Washington

over Ukraine.

Anatole regards both those concerns as, well, listen to Anatole.

He's not impressed with the European complaints.

He's heard them before.

The Europeans have been left out before.

Anatole explains much more of this tonight.

Well, not really.

I mean, there's endless talk and speculation.

But, you know, Europeans have become so dependent on the U.S.

over the past 17 more years that, no, I mean, I don't think this is going very far, except in terms of European rearmament.

But you see, I think also the Europeans are to a degree panicking unnecessarily,

because the US negotiating with Moscow over their heads is something that's happened again and again

and again and again in history. Now, you know, Ukraine, of course, is more dramatic and radically

important, but it's not new. And of course, negotiating peace in Ukraine without the Europeans, I'm sorry to say, makes a certain amount of sense because the Europeans have not actually brought forward any positive or sensible ideas.

All they've done is, and I've been talking to Europeans about this, all they've done is repeated again and again that it's up to Ukraine to make peace.