Coming up on the Mark Devine show.

They would torture you, but they wouldn't let you die, and some of the torture was horrific.

My roommate, they tied his elbows together.

They stood on them and sensed them and then they ran a rope

over, threw it over a beam and pulled him up and left it hanging for 27 minutes until everything is just tearing out of.

And he gave in and he finally answered,

but he didn't tell them anything true.

They were supposed to tell the communist,

they wanted him to tell him who is somebody in your squadron who's refused to

fly combat missions over North Vietnam. He finally said it was Clark Kent.

Hi Mark Devine and this is the Mark Devine show.

Thanks for joining me today.

On this show I explore what it means to be fearless.

By speaking to the world's most inspirational and compassionate

resilient leaders people from all walks of life meditation monks blockchain

wizards and even survivors of Annoia Hilton and before I introduce my guest today, though, I'd love to say,

happy holidays.

I hope you had an incredible Christmas

and that you stay safe and enjoy the time off between Christmas and New Year's.

Thanks again.

Merry Christmas.

My guest today is Mr. Lee Ellis,

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