This is CBS. I am the world. I'm John Bachelors. Eugene Debs candidate for the presidency in 1920.

Eugene Debs, a man identified with the wobbly, the international workers of the world. A man identified with socialism in America.

In 1918, Eugene Debs extremely well known in the newspapers. Much attendance at his speeches. He had a golden tub.

This was the age of William Jennings Bryan. The men could speak without microphone, without amplification. They were magical.

In 1918, the US is at war. Eugene Debs makes a speech recommending in Canton, Ohio that his audience resist the draft. That is right. He says the war is a product of capitalism and distortion.

And that do not, do not in any fashion regard this as patriotism to fight for the capitalist. He is arrested later that month. He's tried by the Wilson administration using the law called the Espinoge Act.

He's convicted after a golden speech for two hours in the courtroom and sentenced to 10 years in jail. That does not stop Eugene Debs from speaking out. In a 1920, he's a candidate for the presidency as he had been in 1912.

I mention all this because I welcome Richard Epstein of the Hoover institution who in recent conversations with his colleagues reminds all of us that in the event that the former president, Mr. Trump, is arrested and convicted and jailed.

There is precedent to run for the presidency from a jail cell and Eugene Debs in 1912, 1 6% of the vote. And this is before women widely voted. In 1920, he won less than that, but certainly enough votes, 919,000, to impress anybody at that moment that there was great sympathy for Eugene Debs. As we can imagine, there would be for any former president who was jailed while he was running for re-election.

Richard, a very good evening to you. Thank you for reminding all of us about Eugene Debs. Now that we've established a president, we go to what the Wall Street Journal quite correctly characterizes is the tarjory facts of the expectation that a grand jury will return an indictment and that Donald Trump will be arrested for a twisted pattern of violations that I can't summarize. Good evening to you, Richard.

Well, welcome to the crowd. I think the prediction that was made three days ago that the drag situation in resultant apostication is actually much less clear today than it was then. If you recall, this was supposed to be done on Tuesday, maybe a Wednesday, certainly a Thursday, absolutely definitely.

Fight at the grand jury doesn't meet so it has to be put over to next week. There are all sorts of rumors that there's been a divisions inside the drag police department attorney's general's office. Some people saying yes, some people say no.

And there is the general sense that well, is this grand jury really going to convey the old news to be that if the attorney in charge of the case Mr. Brad one of that, he could get an indictment from the passive grand jury of a ham sandwich.

But being eaten, but we don't know whether this is going to go. I have read commentaries like everybody else from both left and right. I yet to find anybody who thinks that this is a strong case.

This is a case in which he pretends to be a bound slave is being driven by the sheer force of his case to bring this prosecution and has no discretion to avoid it is the way he puts it.

He has an enrollment discretion to avoid it given the shaky major of the case and the compound complications arising out of trying to marry a federal voting for campaign contribution case through a simple state case having to do with the falsification of records to make things worse.

I just heard I can't verify this that it turns out that breggs office did not needed spray the obligations in plain English what this means is nobody gets to take the scumbag of the prosecutor's office to find out what they have.

But the prosecutor is on his own motion required to turn over to the party who's charged any and all with scope of Tory evidence that the prosecution office has in its file and evidently it may well be that they did not do this with some of the material.

So, holy before we get to the substance issues we get a really complicated, stash of limitations problem and now maybe a great problem and maybe some other jurisdiction issues that I want to wear about this case but nobody seems to think that it's worth the candle except our crusader bragg and his credibility is damaged I think it's fair to say by the fact that when you're running for over he said I'm happy to indict Mr. Trump a thousand times that hardly sounds like somebody who's a neutral expert.

Trying to figure out how the scales of justice require the teeth on Trump and as you mentioned nobody I think wants to defend Donald Trump is a business or more laws and ethical matter I made it very clear I think it's a total disaster if he should run for president again and we do everything to stop it but it has to be very clear and that you don't bring the criminal system to bear because you had deep political objections against somebody running for president and that's the principle that's likely to be lost here.

Maybe lost in Washington DC and maybe lost in Georgia the story however is not limited to Manhattan I learned from reading and from your conversations there is also a case in Georgia about intimidation and bad acting at the vote there's also a case about the classified documents at Mar-a-Lago when whether the Mr. Trump was candid in responding to investigators and then there is the pending matter of culpability for January 6th.

So those four issues all can be presented as the rule of law and no one is above the law the question that I most keen on Richard is Eugene Debsis precedent running from a jail cell this means politics becomes prosecute the loser and that is happened in other countries and it has happened in our country I believe at the point of conflict that we have often had political events.

...