Hello, my name's David Rundsenman and this is past-present future, the History of Ideas podcast.

Today in Politics on Trial, the first of three episodes, about three epic trials that shaped American

history. Today, I'm talking to a guest to PPF regular Gary Gerstall about the treason trial in

1807 of Aaron Burr, the man who shot Hamilton, former US Vice President. But in this trial, he was accused of wanting to set himself up

as president of Mexico, king of Mexico, emperor of Mexico,

and invade the United States.

Was that really what Burr was doing?

And if he wasn't, what were they charging him with?

Gary, we're talking about Aaron Burr, one of the most notorious figures in American history.

We're going to be talking about a specific event, a trial. But before we get there and the events that led up to that trial,

let's just say a bit about Burr himself because he's a remarkable figure. What we're going to be

talking about today is only a very small part of his life and career. But I think he has probably,

and we'll get on to the main reason for this, gone down in history as a bit of a rogue, basically, among the founders, and he was one of the founders.

He's the wrongen, as we say in Britain.

Do you think of him as a rogue?

I think rogue is too strong a term.

He clearly had an eye and a desire for intrigue, and he got himself into too many difficult

situations to just attribute it to good intentions having gone awry or bad luck. So a bit of the

rogue in him, but I object to too quick a characterization of him as one of his biographers has titled her book,

Fallen Founder. He was a Fallen Founder. But a good deal of the calumny that has been imposed on him,

I think, is calumny and not deserved. And I think he needs to be recovered from that state and understood in the

fullness of his life. He's an extraordinarily interesting figure. And his downfall has as much to do

...